attackfish

Commentators: Michael Dante DiMartino, series co-creator and episode director, and Bryan Konietzko, series co-creator.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Hi, this is Bryan Konietzko, co-creator, co-executive producer and art director of Avatar.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Hi, this is Mike DiMartino, co-creator and co-executive producer, and uh, I also directed this episode. Which is a rare occurrence for me, as we have a team of awesome directors, and uh, timing-wise it worked out. Lauren MacMullen, one of our great directors, had, uh, left the show, and we were kind of in between, um, seasons and stuff, and I had a little extra time, or some extra time.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Extra time is kind of a… You didn’t really have extra time.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: I know.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Less overtime.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, because at that point, the writing had wrapped up for season two and everything, so I had uh, more time to uh devote to directing an episode, which was, you know, very exciting for me, because I had directed on shows like King of the Hill and Family Guy, and…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: King of the Hill…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, where I started out. And I kind of, you know, sometimes I miss it. This, uh, like getting your teeth into an episode the same way.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Because Mike and I, we’re really involved in all the episodes through a lot of different stages, and… But we don’t get to just stick with one story all day long. We have to, um, kind of scatter around to different meetings, different stages of production, so um, so yeah, Mike got to mostly just, just stay with this episode, and uh, see it through.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: It has a great script by our head writer, Aaron Ehasz, and makes it even more of a pleasure to uh, to bring to life. And this is also uh, coming off of “The Guru” episode, which Bryan and I wrote, which was kind of the, the spiritual first half of the season finale, and then we kind of end with the more action and drama and craziness.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AZULA: They imprisoned your leader, Long Feng. Soon they will turn on all of you, and eliminate you. Seizing power today is a matter of life and death.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So this shows the, uh, sort of the downfall of the Earth Kingdom is that corruption had seeped into this whole government and societal structure, and uh, when you rely on, you know, corruption to keep together a good society, the problem is, those people can flip to the wrong side very easily, and they… Everything’s orchestrated so they have control over the country.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: It also just shows how, how charismatic Azula is, that these, these guys can… I think the Dai Li just want to stay in power.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: They want to stay alive.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: And um, yeah, they definitely don’t want to lose their power. Um, and it’s sort of like they knew they were doing bad stuff all along, and… But they didn’t have anyone to answer to, and all of a sudden, with Long Feng in jail, they have, uh, right on the edge of uh, being forced to confront their crimes. And uh, being phased out completely.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

GURU PATHIK: If you leave now, you won't be able to go into the Avatar State at all!

SOKKA: Aang, are you ok?

AANG: I'm great. It went great with the Guru. I completely mastered the Avatar State. Heh, heh, heh… Yeah.]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: So it’s hard too, about writing and directing these kind of season finale episodes, are, well we’ve only done two of them, but… There’s so much that we, we kind of want to wrap up at the end of a season or whatever, and we have a limited amount of time to do it, so… Yeah, definitely from a directing standpoint, I wish there were moments where we could have like, made a little longer, or kind of, just stretched out the drama a little bit more. There were some moments, but um, you know, there’s a lot of material to get through.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: It’s difficult on television, a half an hour format on that show. When you’re trying to do something, you know, cinematic, and… You often want to have those moments that breathe, but…

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

IROH: It’s more of a demonstration really.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: We do our best. So here we get another glimpse of this little I don’t know, kick butt side of Uncle that we don’t get to see too much, you know. He’s not just this goofy tea-loving guy, but he was once a fierce general.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Like for example, there’s actually kind of a little scene in the hallway before they bust out, which had some more action, and you see Uncle like start to do lightning before he busts out, and just because of time and whatever, we had to cut it at the animatic, but…

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AZULA: You're so dramatic. What, are you going to do, challenge me to an Agni Kai?

ZUKO: Yes! I challenge you!

AZULA: No thanks.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I like about Azula that she’s one of the best fighters we’ve shown, but she’s also perfectly happy to stand back and let servants fight for her.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So this um, this particular score, uh, by Jeremy Zuckerman, was really enhanced by um, some recordings that, that Jeremy and Ben Wynn, the other half of the track team, they did some exhaustive recordings of a live taiko band, Taiko is a type of Japanese traditional drumming, um, very thunderous, and powerful. And a friend of ours is in a band, uh, one of these taiko groups, and um… So they went down to Capital Records and got a sound, got a sound stage, and they set up all these drums, and spent like six hours recording, uh, making their own library of authentic taiko hits. And they used them in, um in this score. And so like, the opening title card of the episode is just this huge thunderous hit.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [Referring to the scaffolding around the hole Toph had bent into the guesthouse in “City of Walls and Secrets”] There’s the, the scaffolding, remember the earlier episode, when Toph busted a hole in the wall.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So you see, we track everything.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Someone, someone gets hurt, something gets damaged…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I wouldn’t say everything. We miss a couple things.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Only a couple.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Another danger of working on a TV show. Too much going on. So… What I also love about this kind of finale episode too, is like, the new character combinations, where Uncle is now like, talking to Aang and stuff, which is, you know, we haven’t done it, and it’s great. And, and kind of paying off the fact that Toph had met Uncle in the woods, early in season two.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AANG: She must have Katara.

IROH: She has captured my nephew as well.

AANG: Then we'll work together to fight Azula and save Katara and Zuko.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: But not everybody in the group is cool with the new combinations.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

SOKKA: Woah there, you lost me at Zuko.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Great line, great animation by Yoo Jae Myung and his team.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

IROH: Believe me when I tell you there is good inside him.

SOKKA: Good inside of him isn't enough! Why don't you come back when it's outside him too, okay?

AANG: Katara is in trouble.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So at this point, Uncle really believes that Zuko is… And I think Zuko believes too, that he’s kind of on the good side, and it’s… He, he freed Appa, he kind of went through his feverish transformation, and, and, Zuko, he’s giving it a try.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: He began to see it another way, there could be another way, maybe.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: He’s giving it the old college try, but unfortunately, he’s still unsettled in his search, search for approval.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: He hasn’t dealt with all his issues yet.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Which is well, we like to do that on Avatar where we like to… We’ve said this before, but we try to treat the characters, uh, in a pretty realistic way, and, and allow for human error, and character arcs that you know…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: I think that…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Show more realistic thought process to personalities and conflict, and…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: And I think for Zuko, like he’s had this mentor in Uncle, for, for a couple seasons, and yeah, it’s definitely had an effect, but I think Zuko’s got to come to some conclusions on his own, I think.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Plus he’s really been, uh, damaged, not just physically, but emotionally, and uh, by his father, uh, his relationship with his father has really kind of twisted him up inside, and uh, a lot of the things he does are because of uh, this really complex, these complex emotions he has with his father. [Referring to the scene with Katara and Zuko locked in the cave together] This is a… by the way, another great combination scene.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Oh definitely.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: This is a scene that actually does have time to breathe, and we get to pair these two characters… They’ve had a dynamic relationship, but rarely had time to just talk. They’re sort of forced to.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

SOKKA: We should split up. Aang, you go with Iroh to look for Katara and the angry jerk, no offense.

IROH: None taken.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I love that Momo seems very involved in this debate.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [Laughter] I think he’s… I don’t know whose side he’s on.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: He’s like here here, all in favor of that motion.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AANG: So, Toph thinks you give pretty good advice. And great tea.]

IROH: The key to both is proper aging. What’s on your mind?]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I always think Aang’s going to be like, [Imitating Aang] I have this friend, who is the Avatar, and he has this problem.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [Imitating Iroh] You’re talking about yourself, aren’t you.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Imitating Aang] No, no no, but it’s my other friend the Avatar.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

IROH: Perfection and power are overrated.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So in Uncle’s response, we see sort of his attitude after he lost his son, Lu Ten, in the siege of Ba Sing Se. You know, Uncle used to be a very powerful, very ambitious kind of guy, but um, he sort of lost his appetite for that kind of stuff. I mean we… There was always probably a good, good, gentle, worldly man inside of uncle, but, but when he was a younger man, you know, he uh, he had a much more aggressive side. But he’s getting older, and uh, the loss of his son really really aged him, and changed his, uh, attitude. it’s why he kind of just puts most of his focus on Zuko.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

SOKKA: There's General How!

GENERAL HOW: Argh! What's going on here?

DAI LI AGENT: You're under house arrest.

SOKKA: The coup is happening right now! We've got to warn the Earth King!]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: This is a great little sequence here, storyboarded by Chris Graham, the capture of all the generals. [Referring to the second general after General How to be captured] That was General Sung, who appeared in “The Drill” episode, if you recall.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to two generals captured simultaneously] And that’s General Frank and General Steve.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [Laughter]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Who uh, we’ve never seen before.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: I think Ty Lee and Mai look cute in the Kyoshi outfits.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I love the Kyoshi makeup, it worked really well.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

TOPH: They're not the real Kyoshi Warriors!

MAI: Sorry to disappoint you.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Ty Lee and Sokka’s fight] This is a fun little sequence here, with uh, Sifu Kisu and I did a little tango together for the reference. [Referring to the Dai Li capturing Momo] This is always depressing.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Momo, caught by the rock gloves.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: That was…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: I think Dee’s little [Imitates Momo] I think that was one of those moments when we were like, oh, we forgot about Momo too! Oh, he’s got to get captured too.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: They Dai Li forgot about him too, until the last moment.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

LONG FENG: Now comes the part where I double-cross you. Dai Li, arrest the Fire Nation Princess.]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Now this, this is a great scene written by Aaron. I remember him… His idea for it was, was, you know, the fact that Azula is so confidant, so powerful in her self assurance, that she could break this man just by, you know, just by talking to him basically. She doesn’t even need to lift a finger.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Yeah, unfortunately in real history, there are people like Azula, who are just so charismatic, but sort of soulless that they’re… You know, but they’re able to climb to positions of influence. Same with uh, people like Long Feng, unfortunately throughout history. People who are willing to sell out their own, own countrymen, just for their own, uh, security, you know, their own job security.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, and power. [Referring to the crystals in the cave with Zuko and Katara] I really love how the look of the crystals came out in this episode.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Yeah, you were, you were really adamant about the design of those. I remember you helped us out a lot with the art direction on that.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, I just… I think I’d seen some, some pictures from some anime, of just like… There was a lot of great contrast in the crystals, and stuff…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Yeah.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: And sometimes what happens is they’ll be… You know, you want glowing crystals, but they might get washed out, you know, there’s a lot of detail, but…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: That’s the weird thing about color theory and uh… Sometimes to make something brighter, you have to make it darker. And it’s a weird, weird thing. Sometimes if you have fire come onscreen, you have to darken everything so that it seems brighter.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Mmhmm.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So yeah, I agree, the crystals we’d done in previous episodes, they just get blown out. You can’t even really tell they’re crystals sometimes.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

KATARA: Aang!]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Aang and Zuko’s glares behind Katara and Iroh’s backs] This is a great little…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [growls]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Yeah, they’re staring each other down.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Let’s not ignore the fact that Katara almost used her spirit water there.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Almost.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

ZUKO: Uncle, I don't understand. What are you doing with the Avatar?

AANG: Saving you, that's what.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I think, to continue discussion, she was too distraught, with Jet, to think about it. She forgot about it.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah. I mean I forgot about it.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Laughter]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Until this episode. But you know what?

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Katara’s sad look back at Zuko] That’s a nice moment there, got some good storyboarding, and good animation.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yep.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Those lingering thoughts. Katara, because Katara is the kind of person who, she wants to think the best of some, of anybody, and that gets her into trouble.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

IROH: It's time for you to choose. It's time for you to choose good.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Cool little detail that the Dai Li can earthbend these crystals as well.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AZULA: Prince Zuko, you're a lot of things, but you're not a traitor, are you?]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, there were a lot of shots I put in, like, just like this, kind of, Zuko’s dual nature of like, you know, the good side, the bad side, and not, kind of keeping it ambiguous like what he was going to choose until that moment. Because to me, this whole episode hinged on like, the success of that moment, when he… When you realize he’s choosing Azula’s side.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AZULA: You will have your honor back. You will have your father's love.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: She’s really good at manipulating people, and you get the idea she really enjoys it, and uh, so it’s… She’s really good at playing to people’s weaknesses. She senses Zuko’s conflict, and knows how much he wants to be accepted back in the Fire Nation. [Referring to a succession of shot of Zuko in profile, switching between the sides of his face, showing his scar as well as the side free of his scar] Here’s that duality. The cool…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: And then the taiko hits.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Yeah, there’s that great taiko.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

KATARA: We've got to find Sokka and Toph!]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: And this begins kind of the big fight sequence, that uh, Dean Kelly storyboarded, did a great job with all the action.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Refering to the wave Katara bends at Azula] So Azula turns it all to steam, and vanishes. This was a cool location. I think Dean also helped, helped out with the concept design on the…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: On the background, Elsa Garagarza and the team of background designers did a great job too.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: I remember this fight too. This was another one where, you know, where you had to, you know, once again kind of up, up ourselves, and we’re like, we got to see Katara do stuff we’ve never seen her do before, you know, we’ve got to show that they’re becoming masters.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Zuko’s appearance and choosing sides] Here’s the…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: And there’s the moment, right here. And I like that Aang realizes it a second before you see Zuko shoot.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: And you know, this just goes to show that when you’re not a balanced person, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s hard to make good decisions, and Zuko, he’s a conflicted guy, and not right within his own head.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah. I feel like at this point in Zuko’s life, you know, that was the only choice he could have made.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: You know, all that frustration and anger, and unfortunately, came out in a bad way. [Referring to Zuko’s firebending at Aang] That’s a great… Zuko is using all of his anger… Sifu Kisu came up with a cool move, where he, he’s kind of charging his energy with his fists pointed at his head. Says a lot to me.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, I really like how these uh, the fire whips turned out.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to the scene where Katara slices through Azula’s bangs with waterbending] So I really like seeing Katara just controlling Azula.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, I mean Katara is…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Not to be messed with.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: She’s getting better and better.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Aang bending the massive stalactite he was clinging to down onto the ground] And Aang bites off a little more than he can chew. He’s, he’s just about as dazed as Zuko is after that maneuver. [Referring to the water sliding up Katara’s feet] That’s great animation. Tiny animation, but that’s good, that is that good, is so delightful.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [Referring to Katara’s waterbending engulfing Azula’s arm] Yeah, this stuff turned out great. Grabbing Azula

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Yeah. [Referring to Azula’s smirk] So that little smile, you know, you can tell, Azula’s enjoying that she talked Zuko into helping her out. She loves it.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

ZUKO: I have changed.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Aang facing Azula] Good showdown here.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: [Referring to Azula’s firebending propultion] So this is kind of like Azula with a jet engine, propelling her.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: And Aang taking Toph’s uh, earth suit idea from 2.09, and uh, bending some crystals around him.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: I remember in the first storyboard, I think it was just the regular earth suit, and I was like, wait no, wait, there’s all those crystals! We’ve got to have them, in the spirit of upping the ante! Like, the suit… Made of crystals!

BRYAN KONIETZKO: That design took me so long, and we, it was in like three shots.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: It was a very cool design. [Referring to Azula and Zuko teaming up against Katara, knocking her down, and causing her hair to come loose] And any time you can have Katara’s hair come down is, is, you know. We like to do that. She looks pretty cool when her hair comes down.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Some cool creepy music from Jeremy Zuckerman, there. Everything sort of going from bad to worse. And then we see sort of the idea of uh, the octopus form that Katara was teaching Aang in the beginning of the season.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AANG: There's too many.

GURU PATHIK: The only way, is to let her go.

AANG: I’m sorry, Katara.]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: So Aang literally turns his back on Katara, but with the idea that he can hopefully master the Avatar State and save the day. Which he probably would have done, had it not been for…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: Well, the thing he did not master was, about the Avatar State, is that, as we’ve seen with the previous Avatars, it just flashes for a second. They’re only vulnerable for a moment. But Aang, since he’s, he’s kind of unskilled as, in being the Avatar, he leaves himself open here.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yep.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: He’s the Avatar, in the Avatar State for too long, and Azula capitalizes on that weakness, which she is so good at doing.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Me as a viewer, you know, and stuff, like, I just love the dark stuff too. Like you know, I feel like in, in the middle of the story, you kind of have to end a little bit darker, a little bit more serious.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: I don’t know if you noticed, but Aang had the exit wound, uh, on the bottom of his foot.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Oh yeah.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: That’s why his shoe blew off. Uh, when lightning goes into your body, it has to leave, and there’s usually an exit wound. As I understand it. I’ve never been struck by lightning, but um. [Referring to Iroh holding off the Dai Li so Katara can escape with Aang] So you see, Uncle has just got an iron body, taking rock glove hits to the body, unfazed. But he submits.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah. I mean I think, his goal is just to get the Avatar out of there. He had already… Once Zuko made his choice, he had kind of…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: And he’s just ashamed.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Lost. Lost a little something.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to Aang waking up for a moment after Katara heals him with the water from the spirit oasis] So this is, designed to be like the, uh, the scene in the first episode, “The Boy in the Iceberg”, when Aang first wakes up and sees Katara. She shots were very similar.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AZULA: The Fire Nation has conquered Ba Sing Se.

ZUKO: I betrayed Uncle.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So already, you know, we see Zuko is… These two halves are still at war within him.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

AZULA: father will welcome you as a war hero.

ZUKO: But I don't have the Avatar.]

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah. It’s a great ending. He, he, I mean he got essentially what he wanted, but he’s got a lot of doubts. You know, he doesn’t know what’s going to happen when he goes home.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: [Referring to a booming drum sound as Zuko looks conflicted] There’s that great taiko hits.

[Interjection of dialogue from the show:

EARTH KING KUEI: The Earth Kingdom has fallen.]

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So Aang kind of slips out of consciousness there.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah we wanted to show that, you know, he had… You know, he was obviously still… He was saved, Katara saved him, but he’s not… Not just magically recovered yet. So.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: So thank you to everybody for an amazing season two, we were really proud of it, very happy how it came out.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yep, and we’re looking forward to an amazing season three.

BRYAN KONIETZKO: We’ve seen some…

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Yeah, we, we know a few things, and uh…

BRYAN KONIETZKO: We’ve seen some animation that’s come back, and we’re really excited. So thanks again to all the fans, who’ve uh, supported the show, and helped it to grow and find a bigger, broader audience. We really appreciate all of your enthusiasm. And thanks to you, Mike.

MICHAEL DANTE DIMARTINO: Thank you, Bryan.